Cooling

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bbogue
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Cooling

Post by bbogue » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:01 pm

My non-AC 61 is just getting back on the road after an engine rebuild (from hell...I could write a book). My question is about cooling. On a day of 90 degrees ambient she heats up to about 195F on the highway cruising. Stopping at a light or behind stopped traffic and it quickly builds to 220. I saw 230+ before I could find a place to shut it off recently. I just installed a fan shroud around my 6-blade TBird vendor supplied fan. So far, I dont see much difference than without the shroud. There was nothing radical about the rebuild, 0.030" over, Comp Cams 255DEH cam, adjustable roller rockers, FPA headers with Magnaflow exhaust, new 3-core high efficiency radiator, new stock water pump, new standard thermostat. The carb is a stock Autolite 4100. Tranny is a cruisomatic. Please recall, the 61 tranny cooler is part of the radiator, in case that is of interest. Timing is about 10 degrees. I have about 600 miles on the engine since the rebuild. Oil is 10W30. I would just like to know if what I am seeing is likely to improve as the engine gets more broken-in.
Also, should high temps continue I may replace the existing fan with an electric puller fan from Cooling Components. They make a fan with shroud that is designed (probably with a few mods) for our cars. Has anyone any experience with this company's products?
Thanks in advance.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
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If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

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61Okie
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Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Cooling

Post by 61Okie » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:29 pm

Hi Bill,
No one is posting a reply to help so I'll jump in.
You've covered a lot of the bases for sure. My 428 +.030 with a stock style radiator (4core) trans running thru, runs @ 90* ambient (today) 180 at 3000 rpm cruise / 195 idle in traffic w/ A/C on.
I use 160* stat, Factory fan shroud and 7 blade non-clutch fan.
* A couple things I'd check ---- Pull your dist cap and grab the rotor , rotate and feel for smooth advance weight movement and return. If you're set at 10* initial timing but not getting any centrifical advance at cruise -- retard will cause heat. Even better a timing light with advance capabilities.
*FE engines are fickle about water flow--- headgaskets must be installed with water passages correctly oriented. ( take a flashlight and look to see a headgasket tab protruding on both L&R front of the cyl heads).

Here's a little discussion; both headgaskets Must block the front water passages for proper cooling on a FE.


No kidding, no debate, tabs blocked up front is the only way to get the water to flow through the motor.

Think of each side being its own "circuit" that starts at one side of the water pump, passes down the side of the block, then up through heads then into the intake at the front to go back to the radiator through the upper hose.

No kidding, he has his wrong.

We know it isnt you, but I promise if he takes 5 minutes and follows the flow of water he'll see

With EITHER side being open in the front, the effects are the same the water goes:

His way - Out the pump, fills the block initially (on the side with the open tab) but cant exit into the head so it pushes up into the head through the open front tab, it cant exit the head still ebcause there s no rear water passage, so it pushes right back to the thermostat and out on that side. All circulation is up at the front NONE out back

After the block and head is filled (if it doesnt airbind from no escape (vent) hole) that side just circulates water from the pump straight up to the thermostat and that bank overheats

As they say "No f-in way, he doesnt know what he is f-in talking about" LOL



ON EDIT - Regardless of gasket tabs, I hope I was clear, the issue is you have to block off the front water passage from the block to the head on both sides. Not technique, I am 100% totally sure. Different gaskets could have different tabs on the end, but the key is, you have to block off that front passage so the water will be pushed around the cylinder walls and then up though the heads. Failure to do that means no "moving" water to the heads or block on whichever side has the open front channel
1916 - I'm going to see a man about a Horse...
2016 - I'm going to see a man about some Horsepower...

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:32 am

Thanks Okie.
Head gaskets appear to be installed correctly. Did notice my lower rad hose does not have wire and is slightly soft. Could be collapsing and starving the engine for coolant at higher rpms. Will replace and monitor. I will let the other suggestions wait a bit while I do this.
Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:19 pm

I replaced both radiator hoses with ones with wire inside. No change. With 90 degree ambient at 45-60 mph temp is about 195. Creeps to 210 quickly at stoplights and continues climbing. Noted timing to be 8 degrees. Reset to 6 degrees. Noted the timing increased with rpms so vacuum advance is working. Did not open the distributor but I will, later, to check the advance weights, when she cools off. Vacuum at idle is about 14". It used to be about 17" before the rebuild. The rebuilder blames the decrease on the new camshaft. Noticed that at 210 coolant temp, in some places on the intake the temp was over 290. I realize there are exhaust crossovers in the intake (not sure where) but was surprised to see temps this high. Maybe thats why some people block the crossovers.

Okie, I noticed you are using a 160 Tstat. Mine is 185. I guess opening earlier is a good thing for the initial warmup of the engine but after temps get above 185 I assume a lower temp Tstat offers no benefit. Am I wrong?

My plan is to run it a while as is and closely monitor the temp. I think there is an electric cooling fan in this engine's future. Nothing done during the rebuild should have caused the increased heat but I don't know what else to do.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:56 pm

Regarding ignition timing-related heat issues, some guys over on the Ford FE Engine forum disagreed about reducing the timing advance to reduce heat. They said to increase the timing setting. Here is an explanation I found on a hot rod forum.

"Retarded will over heat it most quickly. The burn occurs over about 80 degrees of crank rotation, when started late, there isn't time for the the flame temps to be reduced by work against the crank. This combined with the reaction still occurring when the exhaust valve opens conspires to dump really hot gases into the exhaust passages. This greatly increases the valve temp and the amount of heat picked up by the cooling system thru the structure of the head and exhaust port. The exhaust manifold/headers also become very hot, enough to glow. With retarded timing, the temps come up very quickly.

Too much advance will eventually result in overheating but it's much slower to build compared to retarded timing. Usually before anything bad happens one usually notices that the engine is hard to start, tends to explode thru the carb, and if it runs at all it's with no power and tends to detonate from the extreme pressures formed before TDC. So you usually head this problem off before the temps get very high."

I still plan to check out my distributor, but I plan also to try an initial timing setting of 10-12 degrees.

Thanks.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

Joe Johnston
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Re: Cooling

Post by Joe Johnston » Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:11 am

My first car had a 390 (which I managed to get down to 4 mpg) and was owned by a Ford mechanic. His recommendation is to only use the book timing settings as a reference to get the engine running and drivable. After that, set the advance to 12 degrees and drive it. Should it ping, back the timing off 1 degree, but if it doesn't ping, set it at 13 degrees. Keep working at it till performance suffers (starter kickback, pinging, backfire, etc) then back off the timing 1 degree at a time to find the sweet spot. Frequent pinging is not good, but occasionally under a heavy load without a downshift shows you are at the maximum advance for the conditions at hand.

Timing to get the maximum all depends on the engine condition, camshaft grind, compression, fuel, altitude and other factors. If yours is happy at 12 degrees of advance, that is where it should be set, but mine may ping like crazy! No two are exactly alike, but in general the factory specs are an excellent all purpose starting point. Don't be afraid to advance it and tune it by ear and the seat of your pants. You will know when its performing its best.
Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. J F K

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bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:18 am

Thanks Joe.

I will follow your advice. 12 degrees for sure. I have also read to set timing to max vacuum and then back off 1-2". I might try that as well. I could use a little more vacuum anyway. I will probably also go to a 160 degree tstat. I see the shop manual recognizes the potential need for it. Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Fri Jun 26, 2015 12:20 pm

I advanced the timing to 14 this morning. It still runs 195 at cruise and heats to 210+ idling, after a run, but my impression is that the temp creep was slower than before this change. Of course the weather may factor into this. Today its 80 here whereas yesterday it was about 90. I will try a few runs like this and maybe even advance it a little more. I will likely install a 160 tstat as well. A 180f tstat that may not be fully open until 200F is not what I want, not in the summer anyway.

Thanks so much.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Cooling

Post by Alan H. Tast » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:27 pm

bbogue wrote:...Vacuum at idle is about 14". It used to be about 17" before the rebuild. The rebuilder blames the decrease on the new camshaft. Noticed that at 210 coolant temp, in some places on the intake the temp was over 290. I realize there are exhaust crossovers in the intake (not sure where) but was surprised to see temps this high. Maybe thats why some people block the crossovers...
One thing to note re. vacuum is that there is an excellent method for setting timing for the engine based on achieving maximum vacuum draw. Do a search in the Forum on vacuum gauge timing and see what turns up. Part of the reason why this is recommended is because the harmonic balancer/damper on the crankshaft is held in place by casting the outer ring and inner hub with a rubber insert: over time this breaks down and allows the outer ring to shift, and if you are relying on using a timing light the marks on the outer ring may be out of alignment with true crankshaft position. In conjunction with this, you may want to also verify the location of Top Dead Center (TDC) on your engine and mark the crankshaft pulley/damper accordingly in order to work backwards to determine BTDC marks on the damper. This has also been covered in the past in the Forum - again, searching the Forum archives will yield discussions on how to find TDC, timing procedures, etc.

If you used a camshaft with higher lift, longer duration, etc. that affects amount of vacuum created, the first thing you'll need to figure out is what your maximum vacuum level is. As timing is directly related to this, determining this will be part of the timing using a vacuum gauge.
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Fri Jun 26, 2015 1:40 pm

Thanks Alan. You are indeed a wealth of information.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:04 pm

Update. I bought a 160 degree superstat (Gates) and tested it along with the 180 superstat out of my car. Beginning to open-to-fully open appeared to be 165-185 and 181-202, respectively. I installed the 160 tstat and on a 90 degree day the engine runs at 185-190 at 55-60mph, down 5-10 degrees. I assume this is because the 160 tsat is fully open at these temps whereas the 180 was not. Slowdown in traffic with stoplights still means 210+ before very long. No surprise really since both tstats are fully open at this temp. Its up to the cooling system to cool the engine, or not. So...some improvement with the lower tstat but this is still not a parade car for sure, at least not in summer. Next? Well, I plan to tweak the timing a bit more but I'm pretty sure this engine is going to need more cooling. I noted today after the run idling in the driveway that the upper and lower radiator hoses were nearly the same temp. The only way I see to correct that is with a better fan, probably electric. I am really surprised since i don't think anything done during the rebuild should have caused this.

Thanks to all for their help so far.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

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Alan H. Tast
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Re: Cooling

Post by Alan H. Tast » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:56 am

Just another thought: when the engine was rebuilt, were the frost plugs removed and the water jackets of the block THOROUGHLY cleaned out? When I had my engine rebuilt I made a point of cleaning out the block after it came back from the machine shop. I managed to pull out a couple cups of casting sand, bits of wire and other junk after scraping with hacksaw blades, screwdrivers, and running stiff wire bore brushes through all the passages I could. It could also be that your block had what's known as "core shift" where the sand core for the water jackets, internal passages, etc. was slightly off, creating thinner cylinder walls on one side and thicker walls on the opposite one. This would adversely affect temperature/heat distribution. And if the cylinder walls were bored oversize, heat transfer would be affected as well.
Alan H. Tast, AIA
Technical Director/Past President,
Vintage Thunderbird Club Int'l.
Author, "Thunderbird 1955-1966" & "Thunderbird 50 Years"
1963 Hardtop & 1963 Sports Roadster

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60fore
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Re: Cooling

Post by 60fore » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:41 pm

One other thing to consider - you added headers as part of the rebuild. Unless you had them ceramicoated, they can add a significant amount of heat to an underhood area that's already notoriously hot. :redhotevil:
Currently Birdless....we'll see how long that lasts!

Past Birds: 1962 Hardtop Corinthian White "The Survivor"
1964 Hardtop Gunmetal Gray "60Fore"
1986 Turbo Coupe Regatta Blue

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:02 pm

Thanks Alan. I know the coolant isn't excessively dirty. That's about all I know of how well the block was cleaned. Considering how the whole process of the rebuild went, I would not be surprised if something wasn't missed. Very disappointing. And as far as wall thicknesses, I have what I have now. I've just got to cool it. Thanks again.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

bbogue
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Re: Cooling

Post by bbogue » Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:05 pm

60fore,

My headers are ceramic coated and I have 2 1/4" pipes with Magnaflow mufflers and Vibrant resonators (open type design). Exhaust heat should be moving out well. Thanks.

Bill
VTCI# 12145
1961 Thunderbird - Heritage Burgundy Metallic
Music...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qNF ... zQ5c09UdEE

If there are no dogs in heaven, send me where they went. - Will Rogers

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